Is posting Macross RPG data online illegal?

Gideon Krieg · Post by **Gideon Krieg** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 4:18 am

Not sure what ol Seimbieda is thinking with this thread at Palladium's website.

http://forums.palladium-megaverse.com/v ... hp?t=47264

However, my understanding of USC title 17 (United States Code title 17, copyright law) is that fair use includes the use of material for non-profit/educational purposes and reviews in periodicals and magazines.

If there is no challenge to the intellectual copyrights of an individual or company, there is no violation. So what is Kevin on about?

If the copyright law has changed to what Kevin is saying, than the Steelfalcon, UN spacy database, and a whole slew of other sites would be considered in violation of copyright law.

Is this correct?

Ryudo · Post by **Ryudo** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 4:57 am

well from reading what he wrote about posting things it seems more like he is asking people to not do it rather than quoting copywright law. Besides Palladium says you can't reproduce their material without written permission or something to that effect. I see this more as Siembie trying to get us not to do it but I won't lie about it I'm going to continue my current trend with the UN Database and Steelfalcon.

Thats my two cents worth on this.

camk4evr · Post by **camk4evr** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 5:08 am

Basically Palladium doesn't want people to post conversions of copyrighted materials (like, say, the VF-1 Valkyrie) because they don't want their system associated with people who are or may be breaking copyright law. My understanding of copyright law is that if the various copyright holders of Macross find out about us they can hit us with a 'cease and desist' order because we are using their intellectual property without permission (similar to fanfiction) and, in fact, have to if they wish to protect their copyright. Somewhere I have a link to a message from a David Weber to a newsgroup (I think) that explains it better. I'll post it when I find it

studiootaking · Post by **studiootaking** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:32 am

If I'm not mistaken, that link leads to the forum posting rules.

Palladium's internet policy is found elsewhere.

studiootaking · Post by **studiootaking** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:33 am

http://www.palladiumbooks.com/policies.html

THIS is the document applicable to 'us'.

araruin · Post by **araruin** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 11:12 am

As I've said before, Kevin is pretty cool when it comes to using his material for online gaming, and STO is correct that the link he provided applies to use. However, the first post also applies.

What Kevin gives us the right to use is the Robotech/Macross material that was written by Palladium. We are not allowed to make conversions of any material that was not written and post it on a public forum. If the creators of Macross dicovered our works, Kevin would be required to go after us to protect his company. Otherwise, it would appear that he was promoting the use of someoneelse's copyright by association.

We can legally use stats for the VF-1, and the Zentraedi mecha as well as the SDF-1 and the Zentraedi spacecraft. We can also use the material from Southern Cross, Next Generation, Sentinels, and MacrossII. This does not allow us to produce and promote stats for Macross Zero, Macross Plus, or Macross 7. It is possible that at any time any sites displaying this material could be required to take it down.

camk4evr · Post by **camk4evr** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:42 pm

araruin wrote:
We can legally use stats for the VF-1, and the Zentraedi mecha as well as the SDF-1 and the Zentraedi spacecraft. We can also use the material from Southern Cross, Next Generation, Sentinels, and MacrossII.

Is that still true since Palladium no longer has the license for Robotech and Macross II?

Mr.F · Post by **Mr.F** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 5:39 pm

And this whole mess is why "intellectual-property" is a big bunch of bull-stinkies to begin with. I have a whole arsenal of arguments against that whole thing and quite a few possible solutions that would allow for much more freedom without killing companies. True most of my suggestions involve them earning less (still earning mind you) and that is (of course)unacceptable.

/Mr.F - full of oppinions concerning the copyright laws

araruin · Post by **araruin** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 6:27 pm

unfortunately, these laws are not in place for people like us who promote the use of a particular gaming system in order to have a good time. We have created stats for vehicles and characters, and we teach people how to play using the Palladium system, but we also encourage players to acquire the Macross/Robotech books, if they can find them, and I have always recommended that GM get a copy of the RIFTS GM Guide.

These rules are in place because there are people who will get a copy of a book and then distribute it's content for free or for money so that the people who put their time and effort into creating the product don't get paid for it. You may not see a big deal in a corporation losing a few dollars. they can afford it, right? Not usually. While it may seem like a corporation makes alot of money on a product, they usually don't.

In my prior business, we charged $50/hour plus labor for repair work we performed. Unfortunately, we could rarely charge more than an hour or two even when we spent four or five hours on the project. This would usually give me about 30% more than what I ended up paying for parts and labor, then once I finished paying for rent, insurance, utilities, etc, I was usually a few thousand dollars in the hole. For 16 months, I didn't take a paycheck from my business and lived off of a home equity line of credit. Things got worse as competition for new sales got more intense and we could no longer repair tools for less than you could buy them. When I closed shop, I was about $90,000 in the hole. What really hurt us though was the people who thought it wouldn't matter if they didn't pay because it was only a few dollars. We had about $8,000 uncollected and another $3,000 in orders that people placed but never picked up.

With my current business, I get a better margin, and I am able to pay some of my bills. When I have a good couple of months, I pay of some of my huge debt. However, when one person decides they don't want to pay me, it take about 4-6 months to recover from that. I'm about $4000 behind on bills right now, but I have $15,000 in uncollectables from the past year. The problem is that it will cost me three times what these bills are worth to try and collect them, and even if I win the court case, there is no guarantee that I will ever get paid.

My advise, is to never work for yourself, and always pay for the services you receive. Even if you think it's unfair, you don't know what it costs just to keep a business operating. If you really like something, isn't it worth a few extra dollars to make sure you can keep getting it?

Kai · Post by **Kai** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 6:45 pm

For RPG books, if you buy them directly from the actual company, like at a convention or their own store, they get like 30% of the price as profit. They make about $9 of each $30 book on direct sales. If you buy it from a game store, a bookstore, or comic shop, they get more like 20%. Every little bit counts

Mr.F · Post by **Mr.F** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 7:38 pm

Well that is a very traditional way of seeing things. Unfortunatley I find such views do not always apply on intellectual property. I do not know how familliar you are with the development concept of "open-source". There are a few people who have realised its potential and even manage to earn money (one or two are even rediculously rich. They operate under a modified open-source license though) on something that is free for all to use and contribute to.

All academic research in software engineering points out that unorganised and decentraliced work as that performed by the open-source community is incapable of producing good results. Well, it just so happens that quite a few people disagreed and thanks to that thousands of people are able to learn and benefit (with their knowledge and skill gained through the open-source concept) the very companies that want the phenomenon destroyed.

Just one example. I won't argue that people being dishonest is one of the major reasons why the copyright laws came to exist. If people where honest we would not need these silly laws after all.

Things have gone too far though in my humble oppinion. When copyright protection on computer software complicates using the product so much that it is in fact less trouble downloading and using a cracked illegal copy then using the copy you have paid good money for things have gone to far. Starforce copyright protection (google it for more information) is one such example. Not only does it complicate use of the product it is designed to protect, but it also slows donw CD-burning and opens up a huge security hole in your security system. To make matters worse this program is not uninstalled when you uninstall the software it is designed to protect.

Another recent fiasko in the copyright department is Sony Musics attempt at installing software on computers by means of music-cds without notifying the user who rightfully paid money for her cd. Large greedy companies gives me the shivers.

I don't mind supporting minor companies that actually try to satisfy their costumers though.

/Mr.F - High morals. Only different high morals.

studiootaking · Post by **studiootaking** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 12:03 am

Just a friendly note:

Araruin - based in the US: a democractic capitalist country.
Mr.F - based in Sweden: a democractic socialist country.

There are prime philisophical differences and ideological viewpoints between these two great countries. This is just a polite reminder to consider the viewpoint of the other is probably not the same as your own because of their country and the circumstances of their country are different.

A relevent example is litigation. The US is very litigation friendly whereas other countries are not. In this case, one of Paladium Books motivations is that they do not want to get hit with litigation.

'Our' easiest collective solution is to not base our stats on servers in the US. The next option is to retain the data of the stats but remove specific Paladium references (MDC and MD damage, only, basically.)

The other friendly reminder I'd like to state is that RPG game material is neither of the two industries being cited as examples (computer software, and (forgive me Araruin) construction, home repair and a building supply/tool retailer business. Though both contain valid points (except for the line of not going into business for yourself*) they are not necessarily applicable to this topic.

* I'd like to add here - don't go into the situation blind, and make sure that you are fully aware of what you are getting into. Even with all the best preparations, and protections, businesses still fail and are hard to maintain. However, people still do it.

studiootaking · Post by **studiootaking** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 12:12 am

I'd also like to add that the content of our work (I don't consider them 'conversions' and I think that any one who uses that word in conjunction with our work could put us in legal hot water) is based on material created in Japan primarily for the Japanese market.

Of course Palladium has valid points, however we are in a gray zone - specifically the only time anyone will act is when they wish to launch a non-Palladium based RPG of Macross in English in, specifically, North America (though this could just be limited to the US and not necessarily Canada as the markets are seperate.)

So, yeah, we can argue our sides into we're blue in the face but the real question is how do the copyright holders of Macross view us?

IMHO, we are promoting (in a grass roots method) Macross and we are actively purchasing (or should be purchasing, hint! hint!) Macross products in a market outside of the primary market Macross is made for. I think that they like us.

Gideon Krieg · Post by **Gideon Krieg** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:53 am

I believe we should dump the Paladium system (at least the wording like MDC, SDC, etc.) and develop an in-house system.

US Copyright law does not protect game systems of any kind.

http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl108.html

This means another game exactly like Palladium's could be made if the terms, and literary wording are different than those found in the Palladium game system rule books (especially anything they have Trademarked).

Also, we should avoid using any of Palladium's artwork created by Kevin Long, Newton Ewell, Breax, or any other Palladium artist.

It is my opinion that we could insulate ourselves somewhat by using only "official" Macross artwork (Kawamori, Miyatake, Mikimoto, i.e. Studio Nue or Big West sanctioned material).

The main reason I bring this up is because the pin-heads on the Robotech boards (at Palladium's website) are talking about redoing the "Robotech Veritech" stats and want to see the "other Macross Veritechs" in a new Robotech Ulitimate Edition RPG. One fool even posted a link to Steelfalcon.

I am concerned that eventually, ol sue-happy Seimbieda may come calling on Dave Deitrich, Dan Henwood, and the MRC. As Araruin pointed out, Palladium, or HG, could force us to shut down or face a lawsuit.

"Fair Use" does not apply to us, and using a non-US site is irrelevant as the Berne treaty, and UCC treaty apply to most western countries which provide internet serivces as well as many Eastern countries.

Fair Use: http://fairuse.stanford.edu/Copyright_a ... index.html

However, I think it would be difficult for Palladium or HG to claim any type of infringement based on artwork that belongs to Big West/Studio Nue (if they come calling that's a different story, but I agree with STO, I doubt BW would come after us). Palladium and HG, simply have no legal claim to Kawamori, Miyatake, or Mikimoto's work, no matter what they believe.

That's my 2 cents anyway.

Ryudo · Post by **Ryudo** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 3:18 am

or the simpler solution of just going with what we've been doing until we are asked to stop in which case we then develop or switch to a new system. That way incase we avoid all these headaches or not its a simply plan.

araruin · Post by **araruin** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 4:41 am

Regarding open-source material: So far, open source has allowed the market to be flooded with product for the d20 system. Only a few of these companies ever really break into the industry, while the smaller ones don't receive enough support to continue producing product. the end result is that Wizards of the Coast owns everything that you publish using their open gaming license. In fact, they have already taken material from other d20 sources and published it in official D&D books. It's not the greatest thing out there unless you own the original license and now own the rights to the other people's product as well.

It is my opinion that we could insulate ourselves somewhat by using only "official" Macross artwork.

I think you may have missed the main point here Gideon. Someone owns everything we use. Noone said that Palladium would be the ones doing the suing. As I recall, Studio Neu has already gone to court about their material. They could just as easily order us to stop posting official Macross pictures because we keep people from buying the videos. Anyone can sue us for almost anything we are doing here. One of your character names could lead to your getting sued. It doesn't matter what source we use. The point is to do what we are doing in a way that does not cause trouble with the source's owners.

I am concerned that eventually, ol sue-happy Seimbieda may come calling on Dave Deitrich, Dan Henwood, and the MRC.

I'd also advise not forming opinions about people you don't know. As I stated before, Kevin is a pretty cool guy who wants us to be able to use his material. all he asks is that we don't post up the books word for word. However, by using his system to do other stats, his company would appear to be supporting our use of another persons property if he did not take action to stop it when pressure was brought to bear.

Finally, while this isn't an exact analogy, I think it can be used here to explain the concept of intellectual property. I spent alot of time and effort to get my wife to marry me. After all that effort, I'm not going to let everyone else sleep with her. It's not an exact match, but I think it gets the idea across.

studiootaking · Post by **studiootaking** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:37 am

I'm with Araruin on the last post.

Just keep in mind that as long as we assist in the owners of Macross (Big West, the last time I checked) in making profit, and do not take away from their profit, they'll leave us alone.

Mr.F · Post by **Mr.F** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 6:33 pm

Finally, while this isn't an exact analogy, I think it can be used here to explain the concept of intellectual property. I spent alot of time and effort to get my wife to marry me. After all that effort, I'm not going to let everyone else sleep with her. It's not an exact match, but I think it gets the idea across.

^_^
Very fun analogy I must say. But you don't go around trying to get yourself as many wifes as you possibly can to prevent others from sleeping with them without paying you a fee first either. Nor do you explicitly tell every male you meet that he is NOT under ANY cicumstances allowed to sleep with her.

The open-sourcing I was refering to in my previous post was the software development one (GPL, LGPL etc. <-- Licences). What you mentioned regarding the d20 system seems quite wrong and in certain countries illegal.

My critique was not directed towards any specific company (like the one(s) holding the Macross rights), but rather critique against the copyright laws in their current incarnation. I feel there are plenty of ways to limmit others infringement on a copyrightholders profits.

This probably isn't the place to discuss such things though and I apologise for any confusion I may have created. I blame this hellish season they call spring. That and the fact I get furious when I hear large multi-billionairs complaining that piracy hurts their profits when numbers clearly show said profits have in fact increased (*cough* music industy *cough*).

/Mr.F - $$ where $$ are due

Crimson Reaver · Post by **Crimson Reaver** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 7:25 pm

I seriously doubt that Palladium will be in any position to take any form of legal action when you consider this:

http://forums.palladium-megaverse.com/v ... hp?t=57048

araruin · Post by **araruin** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:18 pm

I really hate to hear this. I can ensure you that I'll be doing whatever I can to help Kevin out, and I'd like to encourage everyone else to do the same. For those of you who live around Michigan, I'd suggest attentding the Palladium open house. It's only $30 for the weekend, and there is an opportunity to pick up alot of cool Robotech stuff.

Ryudo · Post by **Ryudo** » Fri Apr 21, 2006 6:59 am

ya know, if Palladium was to go under would our problems with the copywright issues go away? call it morbid curiosity

studiootaking · Post by **studiootaking** » Fri Apr 21, 2006 10:56 am

Probably not.

Why? Palladium owns some games that could be considered 'bankable.'* Which translates to: other companies will be buying the rights to the game and controlling the Palladium system.

In other words: there would be a stronger chance of a more immediate negative effect on us for using the Palladium system.

*Rifts comes to mind. The fact that they are in negotiation/discussion to make a movie speaks volumes, let alone the work on video games.

araruin · Post by **araruin** » Fri Apr 21, 2006 11:01 am

In addition to someone else possibly acquiring the Palladium system, we have the potential to lose what protection we have if Palladium can no longer grant us the rights to use Robotech material.

Gideon Krieg · Post by **Gideon Krieg** » Sat Apr 22, 2006 10:10 pm

I think you may have missed the main point here Gideon.

Actually I didn't miss the point.

I simply wanted to clarify that what we are doing is technically illegal.

That's all.

I'd also advise not forming opinions about people you don't know.

Normally I would agree with you on this.
However, as much as K.S. is a great guy (and in my opinion he is, no B.S.), he gained a reputation as "sue-happy" because of the suits against WotC's "The Primal Order" game, which had conversion notes for Palladium's (and other companies) game systems.

Peter D. Adkison (at the 1993 GAMA [GAme Manufacturers Association] Trade Show) made clear that the Palladium suit was seen as "ridiculous" but that they would comply with all of Kevin's wishes exept "admission of guilt."

I find it interesting that all of the following companies gave permission to WotC to convert their systems;

"White Wolf, Stellar Games, Mayfair, Flying Buffallo Inc, FASA, GMA,
Columbia Games, Atlas Games, Steve Jackson Games, R. Talsorian,
Chessex, Leading Edge, and West End Games."

According to Peter, Steve Jackson (of Steve Jackson games) was more than a little perturbed about Kevin's attitude over this. SJG, did a write up about it in "Pyramid" magazine back in 93.

Mike Pondsmith of R. Talisorian Games acted as a third party moderator between the two companies as he knew Kevin, and knew his "peculiarities" over copyright. Recently, Peter Adkison made known (at the 2003 GAMA show) that all but one of the charges in the Palladium suit, had been dismissed during the 1993 lawsuit, while he could not talk about the details, he said that only the use of Palladium's Trademarks by WotC, were an issue. The use of their game mechanics was not.

Then there was the whole GDW mess over articles printed in "Challenge" magazine which covered some Palladium material.

Kev's reputation as a "sue-a-holic" comes from fans of Wizards of the Coast, GDW(whose actual demise was a mix of TSR's lawsuit and external issues), and numerous people who claim to have been "wronged" by Kevin.

Examples of these claims can be found on RPG.net while others are just the remains of sites that were once online. Allegedly he (Kev) had them shut down after DC comics and Lucas Arts contacted Palladium and threatened lawsuits over websites converting DC and Star Wars material over to Palladium rules.

While much of this is conjecture, one thing is sure;

THE BOTTOM LINE: Please don’t convert and post Palladium characters and/or rules to other games. Don’t convert the fictional characters, space ships, monsters, gear and copyrighted images or text created by other companies and individuals to Palladium’s game rules, either. Don’t post them online or share them with others through invitations online via e-mail and downloads. If you have such “conversions” online right now – please remove them. Thank you.

I hope this clarifies the situation about conversions (just don’t do ‘em). Thanks for listening.

– Kevin Siembieda, August 2004.

In addition to someone else possibly acquiring the Palladium system, we have the potential to lose what protection we have if Palladium can no longer grant us the rights to use Robotech material.

Agreed, though I would go further and say, we have no protection from Palladium now, as they no longer hold the license to make Robotech RPG material.

Personally I'd like to see a D20 version of either the Macross line(preferably, if HG ever gives their conscent) or Robotech. Though I doubt if either are likely.

araruin · Post by **araruin** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 12:45 am

I'm not really too impressed with d20 rules for vehicles, so I'm not really looking forward to any conversion for mecha. I found Armageddon to be an interesting mecha combat system, but it works better for Destroids than fighters. I've always made the Palladium sules wiork for me, but I'm aware that there are others who don't really care for the system.