D&D 4E

[Halo Profile]

Okay, it's out... people have read it (I mean I hope people other than me ... for discussion's sake). So, what do you guys think of it? I know this may not be the ideal audience for this discussion, but the official and dedicated forums seem to be over-run by an abundance of ... well, let's say passionate people (and I mean both those who love the new system and hate it). It's real hard to pick through all the nonsense to get to a genuine, thoughtful discussion.

But I digress. If anyone has an opinion on the new D&D I'd like to hear your thoughts.

[araruin Profile WebsiteICQ]

It looks nice. I would say that it brings balance to the force. It kindof neutralizes cheese by giving everyone cheese. One of my players has said that they finally created a game system for me to run the sort of game I like to run.

[Sparky Profile YIM]

I ran two adventures at my workplace on Worldwide D&D day of introduction to 4th Edition. I like the changes they've made to the system, and I especially like what they've done with the classes(can anyone say "Pally-Power!"). It's no longer a dice-based Roll-playing game(while still leaning heavily on the D20), it's a good Role-playing game now that has made even 1st level heroes into characters that can be liked and admired and can do stunts and tricks that would have taken a character of at least 6th level to do back in 3.5.

I rate it a 9/10 on my scale. And it only loses the one because they changed the core metallic dragons around a bit.

[Halo Profile]

Okay... here are my snap judgments based on one quick read-thru and no play time. So if I have something wrong or misunderstood anything, please let me know.

THINGS I LIKE ABOUT 4E
· Holy symbols and other implements. It’s about time that these be treated as special magic items.

· No more Spell Component Rules… I’ve never once played in a game that used them anyway.

· All classes have an ability to heal themselves.

· MMO-inspired rules… I know this is a major point of contention with a lot of people, but it just seems like a natural evolution to me.

· Every class having Powers. Fighters and melee classes should have some special bad-ass melee attacks similar to wizard spells.

· Much tighter multi-class rules. The 3rd edition rules made min-maxing too easy and a ton of characters all taking Rogue as their first level whether they planned to stick to that course or not (and with all the skill bonuses that allowed, why not?)

· Like Sparky pointed out, the overall power has been amped up a little, so even at 1st level you feel mightier than a mere mortal and able to whup some ass.

· Wizards never needing to worry about running out of spells… they can fire Magic Missiles all they like (albeit for less damage and a chance to miss… but at least you know you always have it in your pocket if you need it).

· All races have specific (and mostly really cool) special abilities and feats.

· Combat and (what used to be known as) Saving Throws grow in a much more consistent rate with the character (i.e. you add half your level to these abilities).

· Simpler Critical Hit rules that sacrifice nothing from previous editions.

· Monsters are given faaar more interesting traits and abilities. For example, in the older versions it really felt like Kobalds, Goblins, Gnolls, Orcs, etc were all the same, just at different levels. You started fighting Kobalds then get bored of them and move on to Gnolls (who fight the same), then onto Orcs, then so on and so on. But in the new edition they all have little bits that make they feel different… Gnolls fight in concert like a hyena pack, Kobalds are tricky lil bastards who may stab or toss a flask of acid on you, Goblins are (I think) kind of like roman legionnaires, etc. And the other monsters seem to each have their own special flavor too. I dig it.

· Encounters are designed with groups of enemies in mind, not single monster encounters.

· “Bloodied” rules. When you’re down to ½ HP you’re “bloodied” and that opens up a whole host of new abilities for you and what you’re fighting. Get a dragon bloodied and he’s likely to be pissed and bust out some cooler powers than you expect. I can dig it.

· Ritual Magic. Some spells take longer to cast, but are not subject to daily casting limitations… and the ones they include make sense to me for that rule set.

· More feats, more frequently.

· Allowing mages to add their INT to defense instead of DEX.


THINGS I DON'T LIKE ABOUT 4E
(Or things I'm just confused by...)

· Characters of same level and class have even less to differentiate themselves. i.e. Skills are fairly universal and not varied by a number of Ranks spent by characters to flesh out their training, and Wizards/Clerics are pretty much all the same. There are no “Schools” of Arcane Spells for Wizards to specialize in, nor are there Domains for the Clerics. Other than each god allowing its Cleric to choose a deity-specific feat, there is no difference. But, in all fairness, this is the first basic book. I expect later “Complete Cleric Handbook” type volumes to give more/better options to differentiate a character from the crowd.

· The changes in Alignment rules. They attempted to simplify things by reducing the number of alignment options, but that only served to muddy the waters and, again, lessen each character’s individuality. I say either leave alignments alone or do away with them completely… all or nothing.

· Reduced number of attacks per round. Everyone gets one per round unless they spend an “Action Point” to get a second (usually 1 per day). Even familiar feats like Two-Weapon Fighting no longer grant an extra attack (instead that feat just adds a minor bonus to damage for attacking with the main hand … regardless of what you’re holding in your off hand).

· Swapping Powers… when you level up you gain new powers/abilities but often at the cost of losing a previous one. Huh? So a fighter who levels up to gain a fancy double-handed swing attack suddenly forgets how to sweep someone’s legs? I guess I get it from a game balance perspective, but it just doesn’t make practical sense to me.

· A severe lack of metamagic feats … the new Power rules can be a bit too rigid, and it would be nice to have some more feats that affect how spells are used.

· No familiars for wizards?

· On first look Rogues don’t look to bring much to the table any more. The Thievery Skill is their defining attribute, and any character of any class can take it as a feat and use it with equal effect (save for the use of a few Powers that may affect Thievery, but it still seems a minor benefit).

· DnD Insider. WTF?!?!? $15 per month, plus you have to buy the miniatures to use on their virtual game table with micro-transactions on top of that??? And no ala carte option for those of us who, for example, just want the character generator? That is absolutely doomed to failure … even worse than poor DDO.

· Clerics can only use Cure Light Wounds once per day?? Huh?? And when they use it, it has less benefit than another 1st level spell they can use twice per encounter… I have to be missing something because that makes no sense at all.

[Xuric]

For Halo,

I understand your concerns, especially with individuality... The tightening of the rules has left a lot of characters looking the same. In combat-terms, power selection is going to be the feature that differentiates characters (and that's just kinda.... meh).

Retraining RULES! At each level, you MAY swap out an old Feat Power or Skill you've selected previously for a new one of your new level or lower. That's in addition to any newly gained Power or Feat for that level. So your 3rd level fighter can change out his old level-1 encounter power for a newer-and-spiffier 3rd level encounter power, in addition to gaining the new one for that level. (thus still having 2-at-will, 2-encounter, 1-utility, and 1-daily).

Power-swapping is for multiclass characters; it allows you to trade in one of your "main" class powers for one of your second-class'. Which means, yes, you do "forget" how to cleave so that you can Hammer and Anvil.

As for Cure Light Wounds... I agree that it's kinda dumb now, but the real benefit is the fact that your target doesn't actually use a healing surge; as opposed to Holy Word, which causes them to spend one. With the rampant availability of surge-spending powers, Cure (some) Wounds is still good to have, but not as MUST-HAVE as before.

For Everyone,

Feats suck now. They're more like "perks" or "schticks" instead of Feats of remarkable prowess. They add little bonuses to this-or-that, but don't give you new abilities to use (notwithstanding the Channel Divinity feats).

Each class basically has 2 archetypes whose power-selection will nearly always be the same, every character, every time. This is because of the MMO-style design. You CAN multiclass and/or power-swap, but that's still of limited utility.


All-in-all, I think it's a step forward and to the side of 3rd Edition. I like it and am adopting it (but not abandoning 3rd, mind you). And if you have a problem with that, I've got a halfling rogue who knows where you sleep.

[ColdFire Profile YIM]

I agree that the classes are very similar to one another, which is my primary gripe. (Other than the atrocity that has become of Two weapon fighting.)

Although I have to point out, these are only the core books. I am sure they are planning on releasing many, many more rules supplements which will only add to the experience and smooth out some of the problems that they have now.

[BEAR Profile ICQYIM]

The new system looks awesome to me.

I was not much of a fan of 3ed, but this has a much more balanced and Adventurous feel to it. I loved classic DnD when my Mage only had 4 hit points in the beginning and got killed every two seconds, but this just seems to make everything that bit more even.

I like the fact they use the term 'Aggro'.

Another good point: No. F-ing. Gnomes. (Yet at least)

[Xuric]

Gnomes are in the Monstrous Manual. And they are playable

By the way... Eladrin Fey Pact Warlock = Nightcrawler

[BEAR Profile ICQYIM]

LAME.

*grumble*

[NightLance Profile Website]

As someone who has ran under 4E ever since the books came out let me just say that the new system is a very welcome change.

Classes are more associated in roles now which brings back the importance of people working together rather then creating god characters. This brings me back to the 1st Edition days and I very well welcome this new change.

Games are easier to set up now. For those of us who DREAD the paperwork that comes with DMing they have cut down on a lot of nonsense. To me this just honestly makes sense and I'm all for it.

Back to one-attack per turn. Yeah I'm in favor of it mostly because back in 3E the only attacks that really counted were the first 2-3 afterwords the BAB was so shitty that you weren't going to get a hit you were rolling to see if you got a twenty. There's plenty of powers that lets you make secondary attacks when you smack the first one and there's classes like the warlord that can have people bring out more attacks. The one attack per turn means that we're back to stream-lined and less hectic combat.

Ritual Casting. It makes sense to me they were the utility spells that had some importance but at the same time you almost never used them except during random moments (less you had a DM that was into non-combat stuff more often). So kudos that the rituals have their uses but at the same time aren't going to eat up our precious slots.

No longer dependent on casters. Yes in 3E a party's adventure ended for the day when the cleric was out of heals or the mage was out of nukes. I welcome the fact that a party can get along without a cleric and a wizard in the group.

Slots in General...from a balance standpoint I understand it...from a realistic standpoint? I'll probably create a house-rule that lets people KEEP all the powers they learned and have the ability to use them. Sure they might learn a new ability but why forget a perfectly usable old one it'll give players more options.

Feats. Feats are a lot more useful then people give credit for in 4E granted the Heroic feats bite but when you get to the Paragon and Epic feats its a pretty good deal they did some nice things.

Skills. Star Wars RPG does this system for a reason. It means that checks that you would have 9 out of 10 times bombed in 3E at the later levels you actually have a chance to pass in 4E. Its a nice touch.

Defenses. This has cut down on a lot of un-needed dice rolling in the point that you have set numbers. Its either beaten or it isn't this seems more realistic to me then the constant dice rolls and random factors. Some of us royally bite at rolling and that usually led to character genocide. The fact we just have a solid number guarding us is just a nice touch.

EDIT

As for D&D Insider? They ruined a good possible system.

And as for characters looking the same...I like to think that the roleplaying is what makes characters stand out more then the fancy feat or ability you chose.

[Max_Booker Profile WebsiteICQYIM]

Well, its been a while since i have posted here hasent it?

On 4th edition, I have the 3 core "skill" books, the "Adventuers Vault" and the "cheat" (DM) screen. I like most of the new system, mostly the new encounter system. Its a whole lot easer to pick the right "mobs" for the "spawn" now. As for fealing like a MMO they have to compeate with them for there player base. Lets face it, most gamers that watch TV want to SEE there "toons" slay that dragon, not glue/paint move a small metal/plastic item on a square grid on a table.