Marvel Civil War - Whose Side Are You On?
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- camk4evr
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by camk4evr » Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:26 am
If they wanted to do things right, they wouldn't register (according the the panel at HeroCon they *do* have the right to say no), they wouldn't continue their illegal vigilante acts, and they would hire some kick-ass lawyers to challenge this law.
How could they since vigilantism itself is illegal?
Government enforcers
....
o Humbug...
Humbug!? Is there a new Humbug or is it the same twit as before?
How could they since vigilantism itself is illegal?
Government enforcers
....
o Humbug...
Humbug!? Is there a new Humbug or is it the same twit as before?
- Nomad Soul
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by Nomad Soul » Tue Aug 15, 2006 5:12 am
I'm pretty sure it's the same guy.
He reformed a little bit and helped out Misty Knight and Colleen Wing in his last appearance. They are both on the new Heroes for Hire team with him.
He reformed a little bit and helped out Misty Knight and Colleen Wing in his last appearance. They are both on the new Heroes for Hire team with him.
by Thorn » Thu Aug 17, 2006 11:04 am
araruin wrote:There is one part of the registration act that hasn't been touched on. It's the part that says that if you have powers, you HAVE to register AND work for shield. When asked if she would have to become a shield agent, pregnant Jessica Drew was told that they could probably make an exception for her.
It's bad enough that you register people in the first place for their genetics, but this is like telling people that if you are tall you have to play basketball or if you are smart you have to become a scientist. This begins to sound alot like some governments that we have called enemies of freedom.
Oh, you mean like how in the US after you turn a certain age and you're male you have to register for selective service? Most people don't consider "having a Y chromosome" to be a mutation, but we're just fine with draft registration. Why then is it so outrageous to have a superhero licensing process, or to register mutants for that matter? Personally, I suspect that any mandatory employment clauses are kind of a reserve status thing. You register, you wind up with a reserve commission in case the government ever has a need for licensed superheroes in service. Then you have the option of whining to the media about how you don't want to go to war or running away to Canada, same as it ever was. Basically, if Uncle wants you, Uncle gets you.
by araruin » Thu Aug 17, 2006 3:59 pm
It's not quite the same thing, Thorn. This isn't saying that you have to serve if we need you to save the planet. It says that you have to work for the government full time whether we need you to save the planet or sweep the floors.
by Cobalt » Fri Aug 18, 2006 6:09 pm
The Superhuman Registration Act is, in my opinion, an outgrowth and bastard child of the Mutant Registration Act.
It is reminiscient of the registration of the Jews in Nazi Germany, in that the government wants to know who you are, where you live, and (in the comic world) the extent and limitations of your powers. While this may seem a logical outgrowth over the public outcry in the aftermath of the New Warriors debacle, in which a super-villain nuked several city blocks when they tried to apprehend him on their Reality Television Show, it also serves a far more sinister purpose.
In registering, you reveal not only your secret identity (dangerous when your enemies have powers and no reason to register) but the extent of your powers to a government that intends on using you for their own ends. So, essentially, you endanger everyone close to you and you become a "dog of the state", to quote Edward Elrich of Full Metal Alchemist fame.
Is vigilantism wrong?
Unequivicobly yes.
Is registering people and forcing them into government "service" wrong? Absolutely.
Like the Mutant Registration Act, this is about control, pure and simple. Unlike the Mutant Registration Act, they've packaged this one up all nice and pretty, put it under the Christmas tree, and they have lots of Government Sanctioned Dogs of the State telling all the Good Little Superheroes that this is a wonderful thing and that only People With Something to Hide will oppose registration.
When a supervillain offs Aunt May or Mary Jane, we'll see if Spiderman thinks he had something to hide after all.
Anyway, that's my two cents.
Ciao for now,
Cobalt
It is reminiscient of the registration of the Jews in Nazi Germany, in that the government wants to know who you are, where you live, and (in the comic world) the extent and limitations of your powers. While this may seem a logical outgrowth over the public outcry in the aftermath of the New Warriors debacle, in which a super-villain nuked several city blocks when they tried to apprehend him on their Reality Television Show, it also serves a far more sinister purpose.
In registering, you reveal not only your secret identity (dangerous when your enemies have powers and no reason to register) but the extent of your powers to a government that intends on using you for their own ends. So, essentially, you endanger everyone close to you and you become a "dog of the state", to quote Edward Elrich of Full Metal Alchemist fame.
Is vigilantism wrong?
Unequivicobly yes.
Is registering people and forcing them into government "service" wrong? Absolutely.
Like the Mutant Registration Act, this is about control, pure and simple. Unlike the Mutant Registration Act, they've packaged this one up all nice and pretty, put it under the Christmas tree, and they have lots of Government Sanctioned Dogs of the State telling all the Good Little Superheroes that this is a wonderful thing and that only People With Something to Hide will oppose registration.
When a supervillain offs Aunt May or Mary Jane, we'll see if Spiderman thinks he had something to hide after all.
Anyway, that's my two cents.
Ciao for now,
Cobalt
by Thorn » Sat Aug 19, 2006 8:05 am
Again, though, why are they considered wrong? You register in exactly the same way for a driver's license. At least, my driver's license has my name, my age, and my address (currently incorrect, but I've been milking that student/military technicality for nigh-on a decade now). You are supposed to register in exactly the same way when you turn 18, provided you've got that little dangly bit 'twixt your legs. You register exactly the same way when you buy a firearm.
Comparing it to the Nuremberg Laws is a very, very flawed comparison. The Nuremberg Laws were specifically designed for persecution, though had the Germans won I suppose we would regard them too as protecting the vast majority from a very dangerous minority. However, I don't think that the act as described is requiring... oh, let's see....
* Superheroes to live in special, superhero-only portions of town
* Superheroes to work in very limited fields not in economic competition in any way with the majority
* Superheroes to wear markings in their daily lives that clearly mark them as "different."
* Superheroes to be recognized as non-persons for legal purposes
Comparing this, or indeed any contemporary legislation, to the Nuremberg Laws is an insidious comparison, and the reductio ad Hitler argument is an emotional appeal and an emotional appeal only.
As I understand this act, though, what's being required is registration of demonstrably dangerous individuals who claim to be acting for the public good without any sort of oversight. Are there going to be unregistered villains? Yes, it's the same argument that says that gun registration is bad because criminals don't register theirs - and on that count, I agree with you.
So far it sounds very much like Selective Service. The fact that it's been painted as 100% selection is, I'm guessing, misleading. Case in point - how many problems can you solve with Aqua-Man? Chances are that they're not going to call everyone up all the time. Seen from a more realistic standpoint, they can't. There are simply too many problems where calling in your favorite superhero does more harm than good.
Comparing it to the Nuremberg Laws is a very, very flawed comparison. The Nuremberg Laws were specifically designed for persecution, though had the Germans won I suppose we would regard them too as protecting the vast majority from a very dangerous minority. However, I don't think that the act as described is requiring... oh, let's see....
* Superheroes to live in special, superhero-only portions of town
* Superheroes to work in very limited fields not in economic competition in any way with the majority
* Superheroes to wear markings in their daily lives that clearly mark them as "different."
* Superheroes to be recognized as non-persons for legal purposes
Comparing this, or indeed any contemporary legislation, to the Nuremberg Laws is an insidious comparison, and the reductio ad Hitler argument is an emotional appeal and an emotional appeal only.
As I understand this act, though, what's being required is registration of demonstrably dangerous individuals who claim to be acting for the public good without any sort of oversight. Are there going to be unregistered villains? Yes, it's the same argument that says that gun registration is bad because criminals don't register theirs - and on that count, I agree with you.
So far it sounds very much like Selective Service. The fact that it's been painted as 100% selection is, I'm guessing, misleading. Case in point - how many problems can you solve with Aqua-Man? Chances are that they're not going to call everyone up all the time. Seen from a more realistic standpoint, they can't. There are simply too many problems where calling in your favorite superhero does more harm than good.
by Cobalt » Sat Aug 19, 2006 1:58 pm
A quick rebuttal because I am on my way out the door.
If you don't want to drive, you don't have to register for a driver's lisence. However, if you have powers, you have to register, even if you don't want to use them. And registration equals government service (as I understand it) and non-registration is a crime.
If you don't want to drive, you don't have to register for a driver's lisence. However, if you have powers, you have to register, even if you don't want to use them. And registration equals government service (as I understand it) and non-registration is a crime.
by Thorn » Sat Aug 19, 2006 2:17 pm
Again, that invites a direct comparison to selective service, which has a theoretical 100% call-up rate. I haven't seen a convincing argument that 100% call-up is the case with the SHRA, nor can I think of circumstances that would reasonably require the efforts of every single superhero that they would not be willing to contribute without the call-up. Non-registration for selective service is a crime, though not widely enforced. On the other hand, ownership of a Y-chromosome is generally not considered to be that great a danger to your fellow citizens. And as I understand the Superhero Registration Act, if you don't want to use your powers, you don't have to register either. If you're Toasterman, whose power is your ability to brown both sides of bread evenly, you don't need to register yourself as a superhero. If, on the other hand, your daily activities include significant acts of possibly large-scale devastation, such as driving a car or throwing a car, then yes, by all means, SOMEONE has to provide you some kind of oversight.
Think - what's the purpose of a government according to Western liberal tradition? To provide for the common good. The rights and privileges of individuals can be overridden by the government if the common good is demonstrably threatened. Otherwise, the rationale behind all punishments of any kind disappears. Criminals are imprisoned because they are a danger to the rest of the world. Can you honestly tell me that superheroes, because of their very nature, are not a potential danger to the rest of the world? You can tell me "Well, of course they aren't a danger, that's why they're HEROES!" If you do, though, I suggest you re-read every Greek or Celtic myth carefully, as those are the sources of our superhero tradition. Hercules killed Linus, his lute-master, because Linus disliked how he played, and no matter how much he bemoaned the death later, Linus's family was out one father, one husband, one brother... you get the idea. Cu Chulainn's heroism was tempered (at least in our eyes) by equal barbarism and wholesale disregard for what we would consider the law.
The main reason I'm pro-registration is that taking matters into your own hands is a reversion to barbarism. It's a step towards a nation of men, not laws. It returns us to feuding and clannish behavior. Yes, it brings us a step closer to the Nietzschean Superman, but tell me - would you really like a neighbor who acknowledges no law but his own? Would you trust to his goodwill and good character?
Think - what's the purpose of a government according to Western liberal tradition? To provide for the common good. The rights and privileges of individuals can be overridden by the government if the common good is demonstrably threatened. Otherwise, the rationale behind all punishments of any kind disappears. Criminals are imprisoned because they are a danger to the rest of the world. Can you honestly tell me that superheroes, because of their very nature, are not a potential danger to the rest of the world? You can tell me "Well, of course they aren't a danger, that's why they're HEROES!" If you do, though, I suggest you re-read every Greek or Celtic myth carefully, as those are the sources of our superhero tradition. Hercules killed Linus, his lute-master, because Linus disliked how he played, and no matter how much he bemoaned the death later, Linus's family was out one father, one husband, one brother... you get the idea. Cu Chulainn's heroism was tempered (at least in our eyes) by equal barbarism and wholesale disregard for what we would consider the law.
The main reason I'm pro-registration is that taking matters into your own hands is a reversion to barbarism. It's a step towards a nation of men, not laws. It returns us to feuding and clannish behavior. Yes, it brings us a step closer to the Nietzschean Superman, but tell me - would you really like a neighbor who acknowledges no law but his own? Would you trust to his goodwill and good character?
by Kai » Sat Aug 19, 2006 2:50 pm
I play a game called City of Heroes. Registration? Been there, done that 
FWIW I think it's a far cooler take on the issue 
The part that's earlier in the history which is relavent is this:
"...resulted in the passage of the Citizen Crime Fighting Act of 1937. This law made it legal for vigilantes to bring criminals to justice as long as they followed the same restrictions police officers use."
"In 1952 the city decided to expand upon the groundbreaking Citizen Crime Fighting Act, expanding it to include officially licensed hero organizations that could in turn deputize their members"
Then the bulk is here:
http://www.cityofheroes.com/gameinfo/pa ... ldwar.html
FWIW I think it's a far cooler take on the issue The part that's earlier in the history which is relavent is this:
"...resulted in the passage of the Citizen Crime Fighting Act of 1937. This law made it legal for vigilantes to bring criminals to justice as long as they followed the same restrictions police officers use."
"In 1952 the city decided to expand upon the groundbreaking Citizen Crime Fighting Act, expanding it to include officially licensed hero organizations that could in turn deputize their members"
Then the bulk is here:
http://www.cityofheroes.com/gameinfo/pa ... ldwar.html
by araruin » Sun Aug 20, 2006 1:26 pm
And as I understand the Superhero Registration Act, if you don't want to use your powers, you don't have to register either.
Apparently, you don't understand the registration act. This point was touched on in Civil War, and Luke Cage sent his wife to Canada to protect her from the Registration Act. The act does not say you have to register if you want to use your powers,. It says you have to register if you have powers. It also doesn't say that you have to make yourself available if the government needs your help. It says that you are now a government supersoldier regardless of how you feel about it. This isn't a question of drafting during a war against someone who wants to wipe us out completely. It is talking about controlling superheroes completely all the time.
Is it wrong for a superhero to be a vigilantee? Obviously yes. What about bounty hunting? It's an acceptable practice. Is the only difference between bounty hunting and vigilantism the exchange of money? No. Heroes can do there jobs and still obey the law. The Avengers and the FF have done it for years. The avengers have been independant, US sponsored, and UN sponsored, and they were never required to register. Why should it be such a big deal now. Spies have to protect their identities. Why should heroes be any different?
It may not be pertinant to this discussion, but remember that the government implementing this registration act has already put mutants on a reservation guarded by sentinels. My guess is this entire thing is being orchestrated by someone who wants heroes out of the way.
PS - Check out Wolverine. Someone juiced Nitro up before the incident. These guys seem to be corporate ties, but they could just as easily be government.
Apparently, you don't understand the registration act. This point was touched on in Civil War, and Luke Cage sent his wife to Canada to protect her from the Registration Act. The act does not say you have to register if you want to use your powers,. It says you have to register if you have powers. It also doesn't say that you have to make yourself available if the government needs your help. It says that you are now a government supersoldier regardless of how you feel about it. This isn't a question of drafting during a war against someone who wants to wipe us out completely. It is talking about controlling superheroes completely all the time.
Is it wrong for a superhero to be a vigilantee? Obviously yes. What about bounty hunting? It's an acceptable practice. Is the only difference between bounty hunting and vigilantism the exchange of money? No. Heroes can do there jobs and still obey the law. The Avengers and the FF have done it for years. The avengers have been independant, US sponsored, and UN sponsored, and they were never required to register. Why should it be such a big deal now. Spies have to protect their identities. Why should heroes be any different?
It may not be pertinant to this discussion, but remember that the government implementing this registration act has already put mutants on a reservation guarded by sentinels. My guess is this entire thing is being orchestrated by someone who wants heroes out of the way.
PS - Check out Wolverine. Someone juiced Nitro up before the incident. These guys seem to be corporate ties, but they could just as easily be government.
- Ranger
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by Ranger » Thu Sep 28, 2006 7:07 pm
Have any of you picked up the copy of Marvel unclassifed, i belive. with the short story about, HOw shield forces Wonderman to do a un-disclosed black op mission though black mail?
Thats one of the Down falls of goverments and this act. On paper and in black and white, they are all great fantastic. but once u add in the human factor of greed, vainity etc. The once great idea becomes broken and not always used for the greatest good.
Who says, john q senetor doesnt call in a favor with shield, to have Mary Q mentally probe a rival's company R&D Team to get the secret to there next huge market item. there isnt.
We see this kind of corruption in any Force. IE Police or Goverment.
But now u want to allow it to be used with people that can "nuke a whole block with there mind" (think that was the quote used)
after the last civil war issue, more then half the Pro- Reg heros want to leave or dont believe this is what they signed up for.
And we find out Thor isnt pro-Reg he is a clone.
And to add to Cobalt..Spider-man is already reconsidering his choice. =) He is even boy scoutish enough to say it infront of everyone
and to add something about Humbug,,,He is great at intel gathering. being able to mentaly communicate with any bug within a City as large as new york. Is a fairly good power, He just isnt good in a fight.
Thats one of the Down falls of goverments and this act. On paper and in black and white, they are all great fantastic. but once u add in the human factor of greed, vainity etc. The once great idea becomes broken and not always used for the greatest good.
Who says, john q senetor doesnt call in a favor with shield, to have Mary Q mentally probe a rival's company R&D Team to get the secret to there next huge market item. there isnt.
We see this kind of corruption in any Force. IE Police or Goverment.
But now u want to allow it to be used with people that can "nuke a whole block with there mind" (think that was the quote used)
after the last civil war issue, more then half the Pro- Reg heros want to leave or dont believe this is what they signed up for.
And we find out Thor isnt pro-Reg he is a clone.
And to add to Cobalt..Spider-man is already reconsidering his choice. =) He is even boy scoutish enough to say it infront of everyone
and to add something about Humbug,,,He is great at intel gathering. being able to mentaly communicate with any bug within a City as large as new york. Is a fairly good power, He just isnt good in a fight.
- camk4evr
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by camk4evr » Fri Sep 29, 2006 12:31 am
Ranger wrote:and to add something about Humbug,,,He is great at intel gathering. being able to mentaly communicate with any bug within a City as large as new york. Is a fairly good power, He just isnt good in a fight.
Umm. Since when could he do that? The last I heard he used amplified recordings of the sounds insects made as attacks.
by Halo » Sat Sep 30, 2006 9:51 pm
And as I understand the Superhero Registration Act, if you don't want to use your powers, you don't have to register either.
Apparently, you don't understand the registration act.
In the "Civil War Files" special Tony Stark says Firestar did not need to register because she chose to hang up her cape. She has powers, but stopped being a vigilante... no need to register.
This point was touched on in Civil War, and Luke Cage sent his wife to Canada to protect her from the Registration Act.
By their own admission in that issue, Luke and Jessica did not understand the entire Registration Act and were jumping to conclusions... and knowing they'd be coming for Luke (since he refused to register while being a vigilante), Jessica and the child needed to be someplace safe. At one point she mentions moving to New England, which wouldn't be the place to go if you were certain you had to flee the country.
The act does not say . . .
Actually, none of know what the act says, because Marvel refuses to post it. Mostly I suspect because they know it is FULL of holes, with evidence pointing to it being an absolute all supers must register thing . . . and other evidence saying it isn't. It's REAL freakin sloppy, and I'm very disappointed in that.
And especially after the most recent issue, I'm completely let down by this series. It promised to show both sides in equal light and give the reader a moral dilema, but that obviously isn't happening. All it is telling us is "Government is evil, and anyone who sides w/ upholding the law is wrong".
This could've been one of the greatest comic runs EVER, but their biased portrayal of "Cap is Good, Ironman is Evil" makes it MUCH less interesting than it should be.
Apparently, you don't understand the registration act.
In the "Civil War Files" special Tony Stark says Firestar did not need to register because she chose to hang up her cape. She has powers, but stopped being a vigilante... no need to register.
This point was touched on in Civil War, and Luke Cage sent his wife to Canada to protect her from the Registration Act.
By their own admission in that issue, Luke and Jessica did not understand the entire Registration Act and were jumping to conclusions... and knowing they'd be coming for Luke (since he refused to register while being a vigilante), Jessica and the child needed to be someplace safe. At one point she mentions moving to New England, which wouldn't be the place to go if you were certain you had to flee the country.
The act does not say . . .
Actually, none of know what the act says, because Marvel refuses to post it. Mostly I suspect because they know it is FULL of holes, with evidence pointing to it being an absolute all supers must register thing . . . and other evidence saying it isn't. It's REAL freakin sloppy, and I'm very disappointed in that.
And especially after the most recent issue, I'm completely let down by this series. It promised to show both sides in equal light and give the reader a moral dilema, but that obviously isn't happening. All it is telling us is "Government is evil, and anyone who sides w/ upholding the law is wrong".
This could've been one of the greatest comic runs EVER, but their biased portrayal of "Cap is Good, Ironman is Evil" makes it MUCH less interesting than it should be.
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by Ranger » Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:27 am
CAM, have u read the latest Daughters of the dragon series. That set up a load of the Heros. In heros for higher. it shows Humbug evesdroping on a converstation in the city to get Misty night the location of a auction.
by araruin » Mon Oct 09, 2006 9:48 am
Some people are doing a good job on this project, but there are too many contradiction. To do a project like this, you really need to have alot of communication.
I just finished reading the Amazing Spiderman issues leading up to Civil War, and Iron Man's decisions kindof make sense, but then I read the most recent issue of Iron Man and it totally contradicts everything that happened in Spiderman.
Also, in Civil War, Sue leaves Reed to join the resistance, but she does it in secret. In FF, they have a huge fight and she leaves doing severe damage to the building on the way out.
It is a shame, because as Halo said, this could have really been awesome.
I just finished reading the Amazing Spiderman issues leading up to Civil War, and Iron Man's decisions kindof make sense, but then I read the most recent issue of Iron Man and it totally contradicts everything that happened in Spiderman.
Also, in Civil War, Sue leaves Reed to join the resistance, but she does it in secret. In FF, they have a huge fight and she leaves doing severe damage to the building on the way out.
It is a shame, because as Halo said, this could have really been awesome.
by araruin » Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:49 pm
I have to agree. The ending was anticlimactic at best, and I don't know where they are going to go from here. I'm seriously considering cancelling most of my Marvel titles even though I've only seen the aftermath in the Thunderbolts so far. However, that book is ruined in my opinion, and it used to be one of my favorite titles.
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